"My grandchildren will be asking me in 2081: 'Why was there a debate on gay marriage?' I'll respond: 'Because people were idiots. Go enjoy your date with the robot.'"
—Dante Shepherd
16 November 2010
What I Believe—and, More Importantly, What I Don't
I've attached the audio of the talk here, along with a slightly compressed version of what I meant to say (no guarantees that it's what I actually said). During Q&A I found myself trying to explain that being culturally relative wasn't really cultural relativism. It had been a long day, and it may have been an epic logic fail. Judge for yourself!
Thanks for directing me to this post. That was helpful (I did skim a little at times). I spent a small amount of time on the 'faith side' of this sort of conversation (i.e. apologetics). I am currently a pastor of a church here in Winnipeg and I thought it would be interesting to what sort of conversations were happening on online in this regard. I have to say it feels like a foreign world. I sympathize with many of your expressions here and appreciate your tone. I suppose I am sucker for a form of ontology and social expression that has led me away from either side of this sort of conversation. I wonder if you are wrong in your initial move and that atheism is actually a much more rigorous and full expression than skepticism (despite those might claim to be atheists). I imagine skepticism will always need a supplement (but I may be wrong there). You call it a method so I suppose it does not claim any sort of 'totality'. I am curious if you see any limitations in your understanding of skepticism?
"I wonder if you are wrong in your initial move and that atheism is actually a much more rigorous and full expression than skepticism (despite those might claim to be atheists)."
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, here. When asked if I believe in any particular god, the answer is generally "no", so I am an atheist. But that's a single position on a single subject. I have no reason to believe in any gods, so I don't. I self-identify as a skeptic because I believe that the method is much more important than the conclusion.
If you disagree with my characterisation of "atheism" or "skepticism", please let me know.
"I am curious if you see any limitations in your understanding of skepticism?"
Limitations in what sense?
Skepticism is about recognising our own epistemic limitations. There are certainly many questions that skepticism simply doesn't address, but I believe that this could be said of any such method; skepticism provides a set of instructions and recommendations for the evaluation of claims, but does not, say, provide a personal moral framework. It also doesn't provide instructions for assembling a dining room table. That's okay, because that's not what it's for.
Yes, I suppose it depends on what sort of atheist you are talking about. Atheism in the realm of analytic philosophy certainly seems be a singular (terminally boring) topic. Hitchens, Harris et al seem to be yet another sort (though again, fairly uninteresting or even unhelpful politically). I suppose what I am interested in is the atheism of folks like Alain Badiou and Slavok Zizek that are trying to engage in politically informed modes of materialist atheism as universal to address the spreading economic universalism we are witnessing. As for the method over conclusion view that seems like a false or reductionistic option. Again I am referring to the dialectal approaches of the above atheists which (I think we would demand both). Somewhat following from that I guess I misunderstood your view of skepticism. I took your tag-line of 'question everything' a little too seriously thinking you were trying to ontologize skepticism or something but I am now assuming you have a much more varied approach to life. Sorry for the brief responses . . . not a lot of spare time at the moment.
"I suppose what I am interested in is the atheism of folks like Alain Badiou and Slavok Zizek that are trying to engage in politically informed modes of materialist atheism as universal to address the spreading economic universalism we are witnessing."
I could be wrong, but you seem to be conflating the opinions, views, and politics of individual atheists with the opinions, views, and politics of atheism. Both of the philosophers you listed are Marxists, but that doesn't make atheism Marxist.
Atheism says nothing about politics, economics, or even belief in the supernatural: I know libertarian, conservative, anarchist, socialist, and progressive liberal atheists. I know atheists who are not materialists (who believe in ghosts, for example), atheists who are religious (usually Buddhist), and atheists who are completely irrational (who believe that homeopathy is an effective medical intervention, for example).
I am a skeptical, liberal, humanistic atheist. Just as theists come in many varieties, as do nontheists.
Could you give an example of a political or economic opinion that is "atheistic"?
"As for the method over conclusion view that seems like a false or reductionistic option."
How so? I believe that explaining why you believe something is much more important than simply stating what you believe, in part because it allows other parties to determine whether an exchange of information would be useful.
If you tell me that you believe in the Loch Ness monster, for example, I'd be interested in knowing why. If you think that there is evidence of such a beast, then I'd be happy to talk to you about that evidence: one of us is likely to learn something! If you say that you believe in the Loch Ness monster on faith, however, then I have no interest in proceeding further with the discussion, because I have no reason to believe that faith is a useful "way of knowing".
"I took your tag-line of 'question everything' a little too seriously thinking you were trying to ontologize skepticism..."
Although I am a philosophical skeptic in the sense that I don't believe that it is possible to know anything to an absolute certainty, this position is not useful in practice. I am a methodological (or scientific) skeptic, in the sense that the weight of my belief in a proposition is determined by the weight of the evidence in favour of it.
I stand by the tag-line: I think that everything should be open to question. All conclusions are provisional. To quote Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
"Atheism says nothing about politics, economics, or even belief in the supernatural"
I would argue that is precisely the problem. I don't view positions as compartmentalized as you seem to, especially when it comes to the theism, a-theism or non-theism. Here I would argue that Zizek does represent a political atheism. He would argue that most debates about 'god' are really a foil or impotent abstraction that allows the true universal (of contemporary capitalism) to continue its expansion over and into every domain of life. Capitalism will accommodate every belief and branch of knowledge (though it is not neutral in the process). Therefore Zizek argues that a true atheism will dismantle the universal core of capitalism and allow space for an alternative social expression (and yes he goes about that in Hegelian/Lacanian/Marxist mode).
I argue the same in terms of theism. Sure there are many theists. But it seems to me that many theists are actually just poor skeptics . . . which makes good conversation for you!
I would also maintain that your method - conclusion view is reductionist and that is why I asked about your view of the limitations of skepticism. That is, what have you found in your skeptical inquiry into skepticism. I have not found a premise that seems convincing for it to form the type of method that you seem to develop. While I share many aspects of your expression it does not lead me to an orientation of ‘question everything’. This seems to be an unfounded conclusion that then forms a method. I would be much more interested in pursuing the notion of ‘love everything (or everyone)’. I see that as maintaining a critical stance (because of your love for someone) while also orienting a person towards a constructive expression. I see Christian apologetics and critical skepticism as falling into the same rut of being a non-political and, at times, irrelevant expression that does not actually offer alternatives to what is most pressing in our world.
As for your final quote it actually makes no sense to me as it assumes a set of assumptions that I have no clue about. I am trying to think of the last time I came across a ‘fact’ that had substantive enough meaning to warrant a change of mind. I am not a relativist but more a phenomenologist (maybe with existentialist leanings). Meaning is born in the complex of experience, relationship and description. Science is a part of that but does not trump the system (as we are part of the system). Most of this may be talking out of my ass but it is what is bubbling up in response to your thoughts.
"I don't view positions as compartmentalized as you seem to, especially when it comes to the theism, a-theism or non-theism."
Well, then you're not using the words according to their definitions, and you are liable to misunderstand others and to be misunderstood yourself. When I say the word "athlete", I mean "a person who participates in physical sport". If instead I meant "a person who participates in physical sport, believes that participation in physical sport should be mandatory, and who believes in flat-rate taxes for all income brackets", I might be more easily misunderstood. Trying to bundle concepts together like that may make the world "simpler", but you're going to get yourself into trouble when you encounter people who don't fit your tidy mould.
"That is, what have you found in your skeptical inquiry into skepticism. I have not found a premise that seems convincing for it to form the type of method that you seem to develop."
Ah, "skeptical of skepticism"; that's a classic! Rational, critical, skeptical inquiry is the basis of modern science, and has proven itself as an empirically useful "way of knowing" since the Enlightenment. All ideas are fair game, and must prove that they hold up before they gain provisional acceptance.
"I would be much more interested in pursuing the notion of 'love everything (or everyone)'."
That's a false dichotomy. You can question everything and love everything. But I have no interest in loving everything: I'd rather not love hatred, for example; I'd rather not love snake-oil salesmen like Kevin Trudeau, who bilk desperate people out of their money in exchange for phony "cures".
Skepticism provides a straightforward method of determining what is probably true from what is probably false. I'm curious if you can supply a better system for accomplishing this goal. "Faith" certainly doesn't cut it.
"I see Christian apologetics and critical skepticism as falling into the same rut of being a non-political and, at times, irrelevant expression that does not actually offer alternatives to what is most pressing in our world."
I think that is a fairly clear false equivalence.
"As for your final quote it actually makes no sense to me as it assumes a set of assumptions that I have no clue about. I am trying to think of the last time I came across a 'fact' that had substantive enough meaning to warrant a change of mind."
This is the point where I start checking out (see comment on terminally boring above). That is not meant to be cop-out. But rather a statement of limitation. I don't care enough about the sort of conceptual framework you are applying to this conversation to give it much more energy. Of course that being said I do want to respond to a couple of points. 1. The assumption of the Enlightenment as 'holding up' seems pretty naive politically. 2. Your view of love seems pretty deficient(or perhaps sentimental or maybe just sophistry). Sure this Kevin Trudeau sounds like an asshole. Who said love would be cuddling him? I do imagine that you are in fact a loving person though. 3. Fair enough . . . I am not looking hard enough. I suppose I am just looking at other things.
I guess the difference that struck me relates to your response to the post I initially commented on. "What should I do with these folks playing the 'Dead Sea Scrolls card'? Well first off these are acknowledged new (or recent) immigrants (or at least a cultural minority) with a particular cultural framework. Why not find out how their transition has been. What challenges they are facing? Does anything seem disorienting to them? How could you help their adaptation? What do the DSS mean to them? Are they evoking them as a stable transcendent for the purpose of dealing with the current instability?
I guess the posture of 'here is your ammo . . . now lock and load' just doesn't play well for me. But hey, I imagine I am non-rational.
Anyway, I do appreciate the exchange. It helped stimulate some thinking I had not tried for a while but also reminded why perhaps I had not.
I try to use words the way that they are generally understood. If you find my definition of "love" deficient, then I would reply that your view of love seems vague, misleading, needlessly complex, and in some cases probably guilty of equivocation.
"Why not find out how their transition has been. What challenges they are facing? Does anything seem disorienting to them? How could you help their adaptation?"
Because those questions have nothing to do with what I was asked. That's not to say that they are unimportant, but simply that they're not relevant to the discussion at hand. And I'm not an immigration official; I don't know these people, and how they're acclimatisation to their new environment is none of my business.
Let's say that I'm volunteering at a school, giving lectures to teachers on how to approach mathematics. You might well ask why I'm not instead providing counselling services to the children, to ensure that their home life is stable enough to support a well-rounded education. But I have neither the skills nor the inclination to be a counsellor, and the fact that some of them may need counselling does not make teaching mathematics any less important.
"Are they evoking them as a stable transcendent for the purpose of dealing with the current instability?"
Here, I can honestly say that I don't care. I'm not interested in perpetuating "comforting fictions".
Well, this has been fun. Take care, David. If you have any further questions or concerns, you know where to find me.
Thanks for directing me to this post. That was helpful (I did skim a little at times). I spent a small amount of time on the 'faith side' of this sort of conversation (i.e. apologetics). I am currently a pastor of a church here in Winnipeg and I thought it would be interesting to what sort of conversations were happening on online in this regard.
ReplyDeleteI have to say it feels like a foreign world. I sympathize with many of your expressions here and appreciate your tone. I suppose I am sucker for a form of ontology and social expression that has led me away from either side of this sort of conversation.
I wonder if you are wrong in your initial move and that atheism is actually a much more rigorous and full expression than skepticism (despite those might claim to be atheists). I imagine skepticism will always need a supplement (but I may be wrong there). You call it a method so I suppose it does not claim any sort of 'totality'. I am curious if you see any limitations in your understanding of skepticism?
Hi, David.
ReplyDelete"I wonder if you are wrong in your initial move and that atheism is actually a much more rigorous and full expression than skepticism (despite those might claim to be atheists)."
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, here. When asked if I believe in any particular god, the answer is generally "no", so I am an atheist. But that's a single position on a single subject. I have no reason to believe in any gods, so I don't. I self-identify as a skeptic because I believe that the method is much more important than the conclusion.
If you disagree with my characterisation of "atheism" or "skepticism", please let me know.
"I am curious if you see any limitations in your understanding of skepticism?"
Limitations in what sense?
Skepticism is about recognising our own epistemic limitations. There are certainly many questions that skepticism simply doesn't address, but I believe that this could be said of any such method; skepticism provides a set of instructions and recommendations for the evaluation of claims, but does not, say, provide a personal moral framework. It also doesn't provide instructions for assembling a dining room table. That's okay, because that's not what it's for.
Yes, I suppose it depends on what sort of atheist you are talking about. Atheism in the realm of analytic philosophy certainly seems be a singular (terminally boring) topic. Hitchens, Harris et al seem to be yet another sort (though again, fairly uninteresting or even unhelpful politically). I suppose what I am interested in is the atheism of folks like Alain Badiou and Slavok Zizek that are trying to engage in politically informed modes of materialist atheism as universal to address the spreading economic universalism we are witnessing.
ReplyDeleteAs for the method over conclusion view that seems like a false or reductionistic option. Again I am referring to the dialectal approaches of the above atheists which (I think we would demand both).
Somewhat following from that I guess I misunderstood your view of skepticism. I took your tag-line of 'question everything' a little too seriously thinking you were trying to ontologize skepticism or something but I am now assuming you have a much more varied approach to life.
Sorry for the brief responses . . . not a lot of spare time at the moment.
"I suppose what I am interested in is the atheism of folks like Alain Badiou and Slavok Zizek that are trying to engage in politically informed modes of materialist atheism as universal to address the spreading economic universalism we are witnessing."
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but you seem to be conflating the opinions, views, and politics of individual atheists with the opinions, views, and politics of atheism. Both of the philosophers you listed are Marxists, but that doesn't make atheism Marxist.
Atheism says nothing about politics, economics, or even belief in the supernatural: I know libertarian, conservative, anarchist, socialist, and progressive liberal atheists. I know atheists who are not materialists (who believe in ghosts, for example), atheists who are religious (usually Buddhist), and atheists who are completely irrational (who believe that homeopathy is an effective medical intervention, for example).
I am a skeptical, liberal, humanistic atheist. Just as theists come in many varieties, as do nontheists.
Could you give an example of a political or economic opinion that is "atheistic"?
"As for the method over conclusion view that seems like a false or reductionistic option."
How so? I believe that explaining why you believe something is much more important than simply stating what you believe, in part because it allows other parties to determine whether an exchange of information would be useful.
If you tell me that you believe in the Loch Ness monster, for example, I'd be interested in knowing why. If you think that there is evidence of such a beast, then I'd be happy to talk to you about that evidence: one of us is likely to learn something! If you say that you believe in the Loch Ness monster on faith, however, then I have no interest in proceeding further with the discussion, because I have no reason to believe that faith is a useful "way of knowing".
"I took your tag-line of 'question everything' a little too seriously thinking you were trying to ontologize skepticism..."
Although I am a philosophical skeptic in the sense that I don't believe that it is possible to know anything to an absolute certainty, this position is not useful in practice. I am a methodological (or scientific) skeptic, in the sense that the weight of my belief in a proposition is determined by the weight of the evidence in favour of it.
I stand by the tag-line: I think that everything should be open to question. All conclusions are provisional. To quote Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
"Atheism says nothing about politics, economics, or even belief in the supernatural"
ReplyDeleteI would argue that is precisely the problem. I don't view positions as compartmentalized as you seem to, especially when it comes to the theism, a-theism or non-theism. Here I would argue that Zizek does represent a political atheism. He would argue that most debates about 'god' are really a foil or impotent abstraction that allows the true universal (of contemporary capitalism) to continue its expansion over and into every domain of life. Capitalism will accommodate every belief and branch of knowledge (though it is not neutral in the process). Therefore Zizek argues that a true atheism will dismantle the universal core of capitalism and allow space for an alternative social expression (and yes he goes about that in Hegelian/Lacanian/Marxist mode).
I argue the same in terms of theism. Sure there are many theists. But it seems to me that many theists are actually just poor skeptics . . . which makes good conversation for you!
I would also maintain that your method - conclusion view is reductionist and that is why I asked about your view of the limitations of skepticism. That is, what have you found in your skeptical inquiry into skepticism. I have not found a premise that seems convincing for it to form the type of method that you seem to develop. While I share many aspects of your expression it does not lead me to an orientation of ‘question everything’. This seems to be an unfounded conclusion that then forms a method. I would be much more interested in pursuing the notion of ‘love everything (or everyone)’. I see that as maintaining a critical stance (because of your love for someone) while also orienting a person towards a constructive expression. I see Christian apologetics and critical skepticism as falling into the same rut of being a non-political and, at times, irrelevant expression that does not actually offer alternatives to what is most pressing in our world.
As for your final quote it actually makes no sense to me as it assumes a set of assumptions that I have no clue about. I am trying to think of the last time I came across a ‘fact’ that had substantive enough meaning to warrant a change of mind. I am not a relativist but more a phenomenologist (maybe with existentialist leanings). Meaning is born in the complex of experience, relationship and description. Science is a part of that but does not trump the system (as we are part of the system). Most of this may be talking out of my ass but it is what is bubbling up in response to your thoughts.
"I don't view positions as compartmentalized as you seem to, especially when it comes to the theism, a-theism or non-theism."
ReplyDeleteWell, then you're not using the words according to their definitions, and you are liable to misunderstand others and to be misunderstood yourself. When I say the word "athlete", I mean "a person who participates in physical sport". If instead I meant "a person who participates in physical sport, believes that participation in physical sport should be mandatory, and who believes in flat-rate taxes for all income brackets", I might be more easily misunderstood. Trying to bundle concepts together like that may make the world "simpler", but you're going to get yourself into trouble when you encounter people who don't fit your tidy mould.
"That is, what have you found in your skeptical inquiry into skepticism. I have not found a premise that seems convincing for it to form the type of method that you seem to develop."
Ah, "skeptical of skepticism"; that's a classic! Rational, critical, skeptical inquiry is the basis of modern science, and has proven itself as an empirically useful "way of knowing" since the Enlightenment. All ideas are fair game, and must prove that they hold up before they gain provisional acceptance.
"I would be much more interested in pursuing the notion of 'love everything (or everyone)'."
That's a false dichotomy. You can question everything and love everything. But I have no interest in loving everything: I'd rather not love hatred, for example; I'd rather not love snake-oil salesmen like Kevin Trudeau, who bilk desperate people out of their money in exchange for phony "cures".
Skepticism provides a straightforward method of determining what is probably true from what is probably false. I'm curious if you can supply a better system for accomplishing this goal. "Faith" certainly doesn't cut it.
"I see Christian apologetics and critical skepticism as falling into the same rut of being a non-political and, at times, irrelevant expression that does not actually offer alternatives to what is most pressing in our world."
I think that is a fairly clear false equivalence.
"As for your final quote it actually makes no sense to me as it assumes a set of assumptions that I have no clue about. I am trying to think of the last time I came across a 'fact' that had substantive enough meaning to warrant a change of mind."
Then you're not looking hard enough.
This is the point where I start checking out (see comment on terminally boring above). That is not meant to be cop-out. But rather a statement of limitation. I don't care enough about the sort of conceptual framework you are applying to this conversation to give it much more energy.
ReplyDeleteOf course that being said I do want to respond to a couple of points.
1. The assumption of the Enlightenment as 'holding up' seems pretty naive politically.
2. Your view of love seems pretty deficient(or perhaps sentimental or maybe just sophistry). Sure this Kevin Trudeau sounds like an asshole. Who said love would be cuddling him? I do imagine that you are in fact a loving person though.
3. Fair enough . . . I am not looking hard enough. I suppose I am just looking at other things.
I guess the difference that struck me relates to your response to the post I initially commented on. "What should I do with these folks playing the 'Dead Sea Scrolls card'?
Well first off these are acknowledged new (or recent) immigrants (or at least a cultural minority) with a particular cultural framework. Why not find out how their transition has been. What challenges they are facing? Does anything seem disorienting to them? How could you help their adaptation? What do the DSS mean to them? Are they evoking them as a stable transcendent for the purpose of dealing with the current instability?
I guess the posture of 'here is your ammo . . . now lock and load' just doesn't play well for me. But hey, I imagine I am non-rational.
Anyway, I do appreciate the exchange. It helped stimulate some thinking I had not tried for a while but also reminded why perhaps I had not.
"Your view of love seems pretty deficient..."
ReplyDeleteI try to use words the way that they are generally understood. If you find my definition of "love" deficient, then I would reply that your view of love seems vague, misleading, needlessly complex, and in some cases probably guilty of equivocation.
"Why not find out how their transition has been. What challenges they are facing? Does anything seem disorienting to them? How could you help their adaptation?"
Because those questions have nothing to do with what I was asked. That's not to say that they are unimportant, but simply that they're not relevant to the discussion at hand. And I'm not an immigration official; I don't know these people, and how they're acclimatisation to their new environment is none of my business.
Let's say that I'm volunteering at a school, giving lectures to teachers on how to approach mathematics. You might well ask why I'm not instead providing counselling services to the children, to ensure that their home life is stable enough to support a well-rounded education. But I have neither the skills nor the inclination to be a counsellor, and the fact that some of them may need counselling does not make teaching mathematics any less important.
"Are they evoking them as a stable transcendent for the purpose of dealing with the current instability?"
Here, I can honestly say that I don't care. I'm not interested in perpetuating "comforting fictions".
Well, this has been fun. Take care, David. If you have any further questions or concerns, you know where to find me.
In case you had any interest I posted a reflection on our interaction here.
ReplyDelete