tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3418825914680132383.post6996779263771404626..comments2024-02-20T10:05:48.189-06:00Comments on Startled Disbelief: Religion as a Basis for MoralityAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01226088146391183228noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3418825914680132383.post-60732812889258257832010-11-23T22:39:25.448-06:002010-11-23T22:39:25.448-06:00Sure, I think that I understand your argument: God...Sure, I think that I understand your argument: God <i>is</i> communicating the "law" of morality, but it is a fundamental part of his nature, and thus he is not simply a messenger. However, if that is the case (and presuming that we're discussing the God of the Bible), I would imagine that he and I would disagree on many fundamental moral principles.<br /><br />"I have heard the argument before that non-corporal ideas such as morality and logic may in fact be inherent properties of matter."<br /><br />I don't actually find any reason to believe that morality "exists" except conceptually/descriptively, and the same goes for the rules of logic.<br /><br />"One can reject what I proposed here out of hand since there is no supporting argument for morality being part of God's character given."<br /><br />Agreed. ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01226088146391183228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3418825914680132383.post-67326409275597813482010-11-23T19:44:24.996-06:002010-11-23T19:44:24.996-06:00I over spoke in the last comment when I said &quo...I over spoke in the last comment when I said "f that is the case then god's existence is needed for morality..." As I re-read it that is clearly incorrect as all I have done is offer up an explanation of morality and god, that does not fall to Euthyphro. I haven't actually made an argument that it MUST be that way. Apologies. <br /><br />I would say that morality exists as part of god's essence because morality is a reflection of the character of god. So instead of saying that it is descriptive or prescriptive I think it is better described as saying morality is exemplified in god. <br /><br />This does make it somewhat a property, but it is not a general property but one specific to god which he then gives as law. Since god is good, and that "goodness" (morality) is part of his character when this law to be like god is given it is neither from outside god, nor arbitrary.<br /><br />I have heard the argument before that non-corporal ideas such as morality and logic may in fact be inherent properties of matter. One could make that a first principle for constructing a world view, but they would need to follow it through. Is morality then an "is" or an "ought"? If it is an "is" then why do people disagree on it? If it is an "ought" how is it one? These are of course questions those who believe in a god must answer as well, so in the end you end up with competing world views and which one you think is more likely.<br /><br />One note: My goal here is only consistency and showing that one can believe morality comes from God and not fall to Euthyphro. I make this explanation because I love Plato and have often thought how one could respond to him in this case. One can reject what I proposed here out of hand since there is no supporting argument for morality being part of God's character given.Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01094589098767077316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3418825914680132383.post-32385261014624432002010-11-23T18:25:55.128-06:002010-11-23T18:25:55.128-06:00Bryan, let me verify that I understand your argume...Bryan, let me verify that I understand your argument: You're asserting that morality could exist as part of God's essence, and that the existence of God would therefore be necessary for the existence of morality?<br /><br />Sure, I suppose so. I was applying the Euthyphro dilemma in this case because of Kornelsen's specific claim that "the existence of a moral law requires the existence of a moral lawgiver". If I understand your proposition (which I may not—I skipped my afternoon coffee) it seems to me that in that case morality wouldn't be a law, either descriptive or proscriptive, but would instead be some sort of force or property. In this case Euthyphro wouldn't apply, but neither would Kornelsen's description of a lawgiver.<br /><br />The other problem with the argument that you advance, I think, is that one could just as easily claim that morality is simply a property of the universe. Or that it's part of the essence of oxygen, and can't exist without it. Or that it is generated by the constant fizz of virtual particles that are (purportedly) created and destroyed. Or that it's an intrinsic part of the character of the invisible space-pixies that permeate our universe.<br /><br />As I have yet to be convinced of the existence of any gods, and there is no evidence that morality <i>is</i> anything like what you describe, I would have no reason to accept your definition as true or useful.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01226088146391183228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3418825914680132383.post-86172761104492003632010-11-23T17:40:12.093-06:002010-11-23T17:40:12.093-06:00As someone who has read the entire Bible, all I ca...As someone who has read the entire Bible, all I can do is laugh heartily to myself when someone tries to claim that they " adhere to _all_ (emphasis in the original) of its doctrines – even the ones that offend modern sensibilities." It is patently absurd to anyone who's spent five minutes educating themselves on the subject.erauqssihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219367018908376819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3418825914680132383.post-44992732019068489052010-11-23T17:04:04.997-06:002010-11-23T17:04:04.997-06:00Plato doesn't consider the possibility that mo...Plato doesn't consider the possibility that morality itself is the character of the god (Having more then on presents other difficulties). If that is the case then god's existence is needed for morality, but morality is not arbitrary; it is part of God's essence.<br /><br />I think that move can get one out of the dilemma. There may be other difficulties with saying morality comes from God's essence, but I think it is a valid response to Euthyphro.Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01094589098767077316noreply@blogger.com